1 1 STATE OF FLORIDA 2 COUNCIL ON EFFICIENT GOVERNMENT 3 ______________________________________________________ 4 5 6 7 DATE: Thursday, June 7, 2007 8 TIME: Commenced at 10:00 a.m. 9 Concluded at 11:55 a.m. 10 LOCATION: The Capitol Cabinet Room, LL03 11 Tallahassee, Florida 12 13 14 15 16 * * * 17 18 19 20 REPORTED BY MICHELLE SUBIA 21 REGISTERED PROFESSIONAL REPORTER 22 23 24 25 FOR THE RECORD REPORTING, TALLAHASSEE, FL 850.222.5491 2 1 COUNCIL MEMBERS APPEARING: 2 LINDA SOUTH, (CHAIR) TIMOTHY YANDELL 3 AKHIL AGRAWAL HOLLY BENSON 4 ALEX SINK JAMES ZINGALE 5 STEVEN EVANS 6 7 OTHER PARTICIPANTS PRESENT: 8 AMY HOUSTON BARBARA CARTER 9 RICHARD RAMOS DOMINIC CALABRO 10 11 12 13 * * * * * 14 15 16 17 18 CERTIFICATE OF REPORTER 94 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 FOR THE RECORD REPORTING, TALLAHASSEE, FL 850.222.5491 3 1 P R O C E E D I N G S 2 CHAIR SOUTH: Good morning. We'll go ahead and 3 get started. I would like to take this opportunity 4 to acknowledge two special guests in our audience, 5 that's the children of Tim Yandell, one of our 6 Council members, and to say a special happy birthday 7 to Lindsey. Lindsey is 13 today. 8 I think it's important that young people have 9 the opportunity to see how the real business of 10 Government takes place, so I'm glad you're here. I 11 hope you enjoy your stay in Tallahassee. 12 We'll go ahead and do a roll call. Amy, would 13 you do that, please. 14 MS. HOUSTON: Chair South. 15 CHAIR SOUTH: Present. 16 MS. HOUSTON: Council Member Sink. 17 COUNCIL MEMBER SINK: Here. 18 MS. HOUSTON: Council Member Benson. 19 COUNCIL MEMBER BENSON: Here. 20 MS. HOUSTON: Council Member Zingale. 21 COUNCIL MEMBER ZINGALE: Here. 22 MS. HOUSTON: Council Member Agrawal. 23 COUNCIL MEMBER AGRAWAL: Here. 24 MS. HOUSTON: Council Member Evans. 25 COUNCIL MEMBER EVANS: Here. FOR THE RECORD REPORTING, TALLAHASSEE, FL 850.222.5491 4 1 MS. HOUSTON: Council Member Yandell. 2 COUNCIL MEMBER YANDELL: Here. 3 CHAIR SOUTH: With a full Board in place, we'll 4 go ahead and go to the business at hand and the 5 approval of minutes located in Tab 1. And I'll give 6 you a chance to look at those and make comments or 7 accept the minutes. 8 COUNCIL MEMBER EVANS: Move that they be 9 admitted. 10 COUNCIL MEMBER YANDELL: Second. 11 CHAIR SOUTH: Motion and seconded. It's 12 passed. 13 At this point of our Council agenda, we would 14 invite the public to approach and make comment, if 15 they would like. There's not anybody that has 16 signed up. But I do want to open it up if there's 17 any members of the public that would like to make a 18 comment to the Council. 19 All right. Without that occurring, we will now 20 proceed to our next item on the agenda, which is a 21 Presentation by Florida Tax Watch. So at this 22 point, I would like to introduce Dominic Calabro, 23 president and CEO of Florida Tax Watch. His bio is 24 located in Tab 2. And he would like to speak with 25 us about matters at that hand with that FOR THE RECORD REPORTING, TALLAHASSEE, FL 850.222.5491 5 1 organization. Thank you. 2 MR. CALABRO: Thank you, Madam Chair, and 3 distinguished members of the Council for Efficient 4 Government. The mission of the Council and that of 5 Florida Tax Watch is very closely linked in a line, 6 and that is of course to help make sure that the 7 hard working taxpayers of Florida get a good value 8 for the products and services that the state of 9 Florida purchases on behalf of providing these core 10 services to the people of Florida. 11 In this regard, the Florida Tax Watch is 12 pleased that for the last 19 years we just have 13 established with Prudential Financial Davis 14 Productivity Awards Program which seeks in the last 15 19 years to recognize, reward and then most 16 importantly for this effort replicate excellent 17 improvement and innovations throughout Florida 18 Government. 19 We did that yesterday. You may have seen some 20 of the coverage. Some of you may have participated 21 at that wonderful event. And some weeks before, we 22 had recognition by the Governor and Cabinet. And of 23 course we're honored that Lieutenant Jeff Kottkamp 24 continued as Chair as his two predecessors before 25 him have chaired that effort. FOR THE RECORD REPORTING, TALLAHASSEE, FL 850.222.5491 6 1 We not only recognize the men and women that 2 save money through the year, $5.6 million of added 3 value has been achieved, but we also try to reward 4 them in a very small way. We would like to do more. 5 We would like to see it leveraged. And the Governor 6 and Cabinet recognition helps that, but we could do 7 a lot more in that regard. 8 The third area, which links directly to helping 9 to ensure we can promote effective, efficient and 10 accountable services for the people of Florida is 11 take those great ideas these men and women have 12 implemented and apply them enterprise-wide, either 13 division-wide within an agency, department-wide or 14 in many cases agency-wide or -- excuse me -- 15 statewide. And so there really has not been enough 16 done in that area where there's a great opportunity. 17 How does that link here to the Council? I know 18 you're trying to have a really good, focused effort 19 on how you can make sure the state builds a very 20 good business case for outsourcing and that it's 21 designed properly, that it's thoughtfully endeavored 22 and executed. 23 There's a lot to be learned, and we have 24 provided in PDF format prior to this meeting and now 25 physical copies of the adaptable achievements. I FOR THE RECORD REPORTING, TALLAHASSEE, FL 850.222.5491 7 1 know you have in your booklet the actual awards 2 booklet, but we also have enclosed a physical copy 3 of the adaptables. 4 So what we do is we look at the 5 three-hundred-and-thirty-some-odd achievements, a 6 panel of judges, tax watch staff, senior research 7 fellows from across the state that are academicians 8 that are outside Florida Tax Watch. They are either 9 universities, they are in public and private 10 universities in Florida, they are well-established 11 academicians. 12 They review all of the awards, they recommend 13 them to the judge's panel, distinguished Floridians, 14 that have active involvement in productivity 15 assessments. In fact, Council Member Steve Evans 16 Chaired that effort for I think six to eight years. 17 And this year it's been Chaired -- a panel of judges 18 and has been Chaired by Bob Hudson, who is now a 19 retired CEO of AvMed. So men and women have very 20 distinguished experience in understanding enterprise 21 and productivity. 22 But in the area of adaptables, there's a couple 23 of hundred million dollars of adaptables here that 24 could be applied. In prior years, there's been 25 several hundred million dollars. And it's just from FOR THE RECORD REPORTING, TALLAHASSEE, FL 850.222.5491 8 1 adaptable achievements over the years. And I'll 2 leave this with your staff. 3 We also last month or last meeting I believe 4 presented a report which we shared with staff and 5 you all, Accountables: The cost effective 6 procurement is critical to successfully outsourcing 7 public services. 8 So in some of these key areas where we talked 9 about what our experiences were, in fact using some 10 of those folks who were engaged in this activity 11 previously, working with former Comptroller Bob 12 Milligan and the like, we said here is some learning 13 experiences that we've had so it can help you get a 14 jump start on activities. 15 We're also seeing how some of these adaptable 16 achievements be cataloged, be reviewed. The 17 Governor's Office expressed a strong interest in 18 doing this. CFO Sink and her office has expressed a 19 very strong desire in doing this. We need to get on 20 with the act of doing this. 21 I know it's not really part of your core 22 mission to do so, but I think you can probably help 23 learn a lot from the men and women in State 24 Government that have really shown their dedication, 25 their innovation, the kind of characteristics that FOR THE RECORD REPORTING, TALLAHASSEE, FL 850.222.5491 9 1 you are trying to espouse, promote and codify so 2 that the processes will occur as a good business 3 plan, not only a good business plan, once developed 4 thoughtfully and widely used and adaptations to that 5 plan made as necessary because of thoughtful 6 dedication. 7 So these adaptables really represent a great 8 opportunity to mine the rich, wonderful experiences 9 of our success within and throughout each of your 10 state agencies. 11 For example, in the Department of Business and 12 Professional Regulation, Secretary Benson had 32 13 award winning achievements, four received cash 14 awards, four received (inaudible) awards, and one 15 such example was taking an idea that was recommended 16 previously and acknowledged and adapted was in the 17 internal audit team. 18 The internal audit team of the department 19 adapted and implemented a Department of Children and 20 Families Audit Management System at no cost to the 21 Department of Business and Professional Regulation 22 for added value of nearly $50,000. So they took 23 something that worked for the Department of Children 24 and Families and applied it to themselves. 25 How about if this thing could be appropriately FOR THE RECORD REPORTING, TALLAHASSEE, FL 850.222.5491 10 1 applied, even with some modification, agency 2 enterprise -- I mean, statewide. Those are the 3 kinds -- $50,000 a year for a small agency. How 4 about a large agency like AHCA, Department of Health 5 and the like, Department of Corrections? We're 6 talking about hundreds of thousand of dollars, 7 possibly millions of dollars. 8 The adaptable application for you all is 9 learning the characteristics that men and women can 10 do to in fact achieve these kind of improvements, in 11 spite of a system that frankly discourages that. 12 I mean, any one of you know that Dr. Zingale 13 and those that have been long-standing workhorses in 14 this business, know that sometimes the system not 15 only doesn't encourage it, it actually works against 16 enterprise and appropriateness taken. So I think 17 there's a lot to be learned. 18 And we wish to share these with you and work 19 with your staff to do two things. One, to encourage 20 the Governor and Cabinet to have a system to track 21 these to ensure statewide application and 22 implementation. Two, to encourage the Governor and 23 Cabinet to especially try to seek out new plans, to 24 try to execute the enterprise and encourage that of 25 our men and women throughout Florida. We're really FOR THE RECORD REPORTING, TALLAHASSEE, FL 850.222.5491 11 1 pleased to see them do it day in and day out even 2 though they're not encouraged. 3 Thirdly, we think there are rich mined 4 opportunities here that may apply as you review 5 business cases for various proposals, opportunities 6 of things that went well and things that didn't. 7 And while you folks look at things that did not 8 work well, we think this is a great opportunity of 9 enterprise examples that did work well. And the 10 question is why, why did they work well when some 11 did not or others did not even try making a 12 sustained effort? 13 So with that in mind, I do have a number of 14 items that have been adapted by other agencies. The 15 Department of Financial Services had 34 award 16 winning achievements, seven cash awards. 17 And one example was an insurance analyst, 18 Kimberly Brown increased consumer awareness 19 regarding verification of title of vehicles 20 purchased as used or previously owned. She 21 coordinated with five state, local and federal 22 agencies investigating an unlicensed insurance 23 adjusting firm that has failed to remit about 24 $360,000. I'm sure it was not just some slight 25 little technical oversight. FOR THE RECORD REPORTING, TALLAHASSEE, FL 850.222.5491 12 1 But the point is somebody else could have just 2 ignored that. But what made the difference? It's 3 that kind of dedication, insight and use of 4 technology and other things that make that 5 difference. 6 At the Department of Revenue, they had three 7 award winning achievements. One was Ms. Criscola, 8 she had an idea to stop mailing tax forms to people 9 who do not use or need them. It doesn't seem like 10 much, but that saved the state of Florida and 11 taxpayers 63,391 directly in printing, postage and 12 labor costs annually. 13 So the list goes on. The opportunities though 14 are codified here in this little pamphlet. They are 15 in PDF form. And there's a great opportunity I 16 think because we have such a clear and similar 17 mission to try to learn from these successful 18 experiences, men and women right here in our own 19 backyard dedicated to making Florida better, most 20 cost effective, more efficient and more responsive. 21 So with that, we stand ready to assist you, 22 answer any questions you have on this specifically 23 and see what we can do to make sure that what we 24 outsource is done in a way that presents continuing 25 benefits to the taxpayers of Florida and the FOR THE RECORD REPORTING, TALLAHASSEE, FL 850.222.5491 13 1 constituents that receive those services. 2 Thank you, Madam Chair. 3 CHAIR SOUTH: Thank you. 4 Members, do you have comments or observations 5 about this? 6 COUNCIL MEMBER SINK: Thank you. 7 Dominic, if you were grading us as a state and 8 our results in taking these ideas and replicating 9 them with other agencies, how would you grade us? 10 How could we do this much better? 11 I happen to -- as you were talking, I decided 12 I'm going to take the report for this year and 13 distribute it to our bureau chiefs and ask them to 14 go through the report one by one and identify items 15 that they think they can replicate in their own 16 agency. And maybe if we do a good job of it, we'll 17 apply for an award next year. 18 It just bothers me that there are these 19 fabulous ideas that may or may not be actually paid 20 attention to, which is your ultimate objective. 21 MR. CALABRO: Yes, Madam Chair and Madam CFO. 22 The beauty of these ideas, it's not just good 23 business practices, they are right here, right in 24 our own agencies. 25 To answer your question, I think we have tried FOR THE RECORD REPORTING, TALLAHASSEE, FL 850.222.5491 14 1 to put emphasis on the replication of other good 2 ideas, we've made that very clear. And by the way, 3 we've worked very closely with each of your state 4 award coordinators. Each agency has an award 5 coordinator without whom we just couldn't do what we 6 do, and we wouldn't have the benefit for the 7 taxpayers of Florida, so we encourage that 8 coordination, that's been wonderful. 9 I think the folks have taken us serious. I 10 honestly think the state has done a poor job for an 11 opportunity. It's somewhat of an incentive 12 structure. 13 So I think there's a great opportunity. And 14 the only way that's going to happen is when you kind 15 of highlight it, review it and say, what's 16 applicable and then publicly report on its successes 17 and failures. 18 And, you know, this was done successfully by 19 Governor Bob Graham and Bob Martinez. I think 20 there's a great opportunity here now to do this 21 again. (Inaudible) there are many others. I mean, 22 there are that literally -- I think it's just small 23 fraction of what we're capturing. It's a fairly 24 small fraction. 25 It's somewhat cumbersome to go through this FOR THE RECORD REPORTING, TALLAHASSEE, FL 850.222.5491 15 1 process, but I think it's important because it's an 2 independent third party to get a little bit of that 3 credibility. The thing we also learned that also 4 relates back to great results occur when adaptable 5 replication of innovations occur when there's a high 6 level agency and cross-agency executive ownership. 7 Secondly, a crisp assessment of what it really takes 8 to do this. And this relates back to effective 9 outsourcing. 10 Thirdly, it's got to be well-articulated, 11 agreed-upon measures of what would constitute 12 success at each key phase of a concept to complete 13 execution. And I think that relates very directly 14 to what you're trying to do and develop standards 15 and procedures and policies and metrics about 16 building that case of outsourcing. 17 So I think we will continue to work. But, 18 again, I know your dedication, and each of yours 19 will help make that more of a practice. What we do 20 notice is increasingly -- what we recognized five 21 years go is now standard, if we do this right. We 22 are raising the bar of government productivity and 23 government performance and innovation. 24 The private sector is moving rapidly. We may 25 never really keep the same pace, but we shouldn't be FOR THE RECORD REPORTING, TALLAHASSEE, FL 850.222.5491 16 1 staggering. We need to move forward. I know the 2 process policy endeavors of Dr. Zingale and his team 3 has really helped advance in that way as well. 4 So all of these efforts together can be and 5 should be demonstrated through cost controls, 6 improved quality service, more effective response 7 time and actually more happy, productive and 8 satisfied employees. 9 CHAIR SOUTH: Tim. 10 COUNCIL MEMBER YANDELL: How many years have 11 you been categorizing and gathering this data and 12 doing this? I missed that when you started. 13 MR. CALABRO: The resolution we've really been 14 working on for the last eight years. 15 COUNCIL MEMBER YANDELL: And is it available -- 16 I'm leading to a question here -- is it available in 17 a similar manner, you've gathered them and 18 categorized them each of those years in a similar 19 way? 20 MR. CALABRO: Yes. 21 COUNCIL MEMBER YANDELL: It would seem like if 22 you wanted to disseminate this and have good access 23 to it, that putting some sort of a search front-end 24 on this that allowed you to do some key word 25 searches, for example, you highlighted postage FOR THE RECORD REPORTING, TALLAHASSEE, FL 850.222.5491 17 1 savings and printing savings and things like that as 2 I looked through it, there is a bunch of key words 3 that stick out. 4 Have you done that or is there a methodology in 5 place that could do that which would make it easy to 6 implement things like this for other people to look 7 at? 8 MR. CALABRO: I don't know. I can't really 9 adequately answer your question. I think it's a 10 very good question. I know we've put it on our 11 website. We're trying to do a better job of 12 cataloging this. But I think with cooperation and 13 collaboration we could make this a lot easier. 14 COUNCIL MEMBER YANDELL: I mean, it would be 15 actually very easy to kind of throw this into a text 16 search engine and let people search on the things 17 that are in the text here and pull this data out and 18 give them a place to dig rather than, you know, 19 having to pore through all of it. This probably is 20 great information. 21 MR. CALABRO: I'm probably understating what we 22 can do. I would rather be a little more 23 conservative in my response. But like anything 24 else, we can do a better job ourselves, and we are 25 dedicated to do that. So we would actually like to FOR THE RECORD REPORTING, TALLAHASSEE, FL 850.222.5491 18 1 work with your staff or anyone with the state to 2 improve the access and the needs of accessing that 3 kind of information. 4 CHAIR SOUTH: Let me speak to that then because 5 I joined the Department of Management Services in 6 January, and it became clear to me that we did not 7 have an effective way within the Department of 8 Management Services or enterprise-wide in Florida to 9 transfer knowledge, and that the tools that are 10 available in the private sector for content 11 management and searchable content and application of 12 that does not exist in our current environment. 13 And while it's not clear to me that the Council 14 on Efficient Government is the right place to take 15 it up, I would like to hear discussion because all 16 of us have a role in having more effective, you 17 know, business processes that stretch our dollars. 18 That is certainly something we need to take a look 19 at. 20 And I would put that on the Department of 21 Management Services' agenda, it is something that's 22 on my executive agenda with my team to look at how 23 we transfer knowledge and (inaudible.) 24 COUNCIL MEMBER SINK: We're going to come up 25 with all sorts of fantastic ideas that may not be FOR THE RECORD REPORTING, TALLAHASSEE, FL 850.222.5491 19 1 within the more narrow scope of this Council. I 2 would suggest -- and I'm looking at Rich over 3 there -- I think it would be -- we all feel good 4 about keeping kind of sidebar -- 5 CHAIR SOUTH: A parking garage. 6 COUNCIL MEMBER SINK: A parking garage of all 7 of these various ideas and suggestions that we are 8 just brainstorming among ourselves to evaluate and 9 pass along and just not let them fly out of here 10 because we have this great private sector experience 11 on this Council who is going to see things a little 12 bit differently than most of us who are dealing with 13 the needs every day. I think these are tremendous 14 ideas. 15 CHAIR SOUTH: Thank you, Dominic. 16 COUNCIL MEMBER EVANS: Wait. One additional 17 point because I agree with what was said. Also on 18 the indexing, I think it's a great idea. That would 19 be a great opportunity, it's something that could be 20 done I think pretty easily. It would be a great 21 application for both the Council and Florida Tax 22 Watch to work together to create a key word indexing 23 that could then come through the Council's website. 24 What also might be a good idea to consider -- I 25 just throw this out for future consideration -- is FOR THE RECORD REPORTING, TALLAHASSEE, FL 850.222.5491 20 1 that having been involved in Tax Watch and its 2 effort for about 15 years, some of these adaptables 3 are very, very critical and a great opportunity for 4 the taxpayers and the state and how we run the 5 business of government. 6 It might be an interesting exercise at some 7 point in time to apply an effort between the Council 8 and the Florida Tax Watch to go back through some of 9 those and start with this past year and see if they 10 can identify one that truly has enterprise-wide 11 adaptability together. And then the following year 12 use that to recognize at the event the people or the 13 person or the team who really had the one that had 14 really been taking it to the highest level. 15 CHAIR SOUTH: That's a great idea. Rich, put 16 that on your to-do list, please. 17 COUNCIL MEMBER YANDELL: Madam Chair, just real 18 quick on the search site, you're correct, it's not 19 even a heavy-duty undertaking. If you've got it in 20 text format, throwing it into a searchable database 21 is, you know, minutes worth of work to put it 22 online. 23 And I just looked through this, and you 24 actually have a couple of applications in here where 25 people have taken their data and done that. So you FOR THE RECORD REPORTING, TALLAHASSEE, FL 850.222.5491 21 1 sort of probably already have it at your fingertips 2 to go do that if you pulled it out of some of the 3 people that have done it already. And we can take 4 if offline. But not to put too fine a point on it, 5 it's critical to do that because if you're going to 6 implement it, you need to make it easy for people to 7 get to it. You got to lay the food out where they 8 can reach it easily. 9 MR. CALABRO: You know, I think the biggest -- 10 if you will, the low hanging fruit really is just 11 putting a spotlight on it, just recognizing folks 12 for replicating and adapting it at the highest 13 level. 14 As the old adage -- and I now CFO Sink uses 15 this a lot -- we treasure what we measure. And I 16 believe we will achieve what we budget and account 17 for it. So if we make this a part of our operations 18 spotlighted on a fairly high level and recognize the 19 men and women that achieve it, we're a whole lot 20 more likely to do so than if we don't. 21 And it's really getting back to the core 22 incentive structure. And it can be modified. It's 23 not even major constitutional or statutory changes. 24 A lot of it is dedication and recognizing it, 25 because we're still seeing people who do it in spite FOR THE RECORD REPORTING, TALLAHASSEE, FL 850.222.5491 22 1 of what's been historically a lot of push back. 2 CHAIR SOUTH: Let me tell you what I take away 3 as action items to this. And the Council can look 4 and see in this year's group what could be done 5 enterprise-wide that's, number one. 6 Number two, I'm going to ask the applications 7 development part of the enterprise information 8 office of DMS to look at finding some way of putting 9 it online with a key word search. 10 And the third I would like to ask Holly and Jim 11 if either of you are willing to discuss it at the 12 agency heads meeting or (inaudible) if you would 13 like for me to premier that through the agency 14 heads? So Jim or Holly, which one of you all want 15 that? 16 COUNCIL MEMBER ZINGALE: If we could think of a 17 slightly different forum first, chief of staff 18 meetings. 19 CHAIR SOUTH: That works. 20 COUNCIL MEMBER ZINGALE: I think that's going 21 to be the operational link to the staff at that 22 level. They all meet together, and that would be 23 the place to grab it and pass it on. 24 CHAIR SOUTH: Well, if we don't tell people 25 about it and make them aware that once they go to -- FOR THE RECORD REPORTING, TALLAHASSEE, FL 850.222.5491 23 1 it they're looking to, say, develop a software 2 system and it's already been done and all you have 3 to do is get it and modify it to that one, there has 4 to be some way to transfer that knowledge among 5 agencies. 6 COUNCIL MEMBER ZINGALE: Holly takes it to 7 agency heads, I'll take it down to chiefs of staff. 8 CHAIR SOUTH: Can you do that? 9 COUNCIL MEMBER BENSON: I have to do my agency 10 head presentation next week, I'll throw it in there. 11 CHAIR SOUTH: All right. 12 MR. CALABRO: Can I add something, Madam Chair? 13 CHAIR SOUTH: Yes. 14 MR. CALABRO: Jim and Holly, we've been talking 15 to George Anue (phonetic) about this, he was very 16 excited, Jerry McDaniel (phonetic) as well, they 17 said they want to. In fact, they spoke about it at 18 those two levels, one at a mini-cabinet meeting, the 19 second at a chiefs of staff meeting. He wanted to 20 keep it with him as well as Jerry. But they saw a 21 lot of opportunity, and Jerry in particular, 22 especially once they got through a lot of the 23 smaller details like property tax reform. 24 CHAIR SOUTH: Thank you for your efforts in 25 this. FOR THE RECORD REPORTING, TALLAHASSEE, FL 850.222.5491 24 1 Akhil. 2 COUNCIL MEMBER AGRAWAL: If I could say, the 3 culture of innovation is much more about 4 recognition. So to the extent that there's some 5 commonalty that allows these innovations to occur, 6 something such as common culture, something such as 7 common ways that these things are run -- and maybe 8 the evaluation panel can look at the information 9 that was submitted and see if some of those are some 10 common type of cultural issues and those can be 11 brought forward -- I think that would be very 12 appropriate for the high level discussion to be able 13 to say these are the things that occurred in 14 innovation and you may want to look at these. 15 CHAIR SOUTH: And when you talked about the 16 awards evaluation in your presentation, there's 17 characteristics of men and women that leads to those 18 innovations and you talked about their experience in 19 understanding enterprise and productivity. 20 Have you all identified what those are? 21 MR. CALABRO: I would really ask Dave Davis to 22 kind of give us has there been a change. I think 23 it's fairly basic stuff. There's no unique feature. 24 Those people have been there a long time. There's 25 those that are fairly new. FOR THE RECORD REPORTING, TALLAHASSEE, FL 850.222.5491 25 1 They clearly have a very inquisitive mind. 2 They feel that they're dedicated and they're going 3 to make the most of it. 4 What's really encouraging is when they do so -- 5 when they especially historically have gotten some 6 push back. We actually have measures in place and 7 mechanisms in place so that by and large the agency 8 head signs off on a lot of things so there's 9 alignment. 10 There's some cases where there was not 11 cooperation in the past and they -- not whistle 12 blower, but things similar to that. And we 13 recognized and took extra care to ensure, and we 14 independently corroborated a little more carefully 15 than we would otherwise. 16 But I think we'll go back to see if there are 17 some specific characteristics that we can call for, 18 that we can encourage. And I really like your idea 19 of -- this is bigger than just productivity, it's 20 really creating a culture. And I think that's the 21 one culture of outstanding public service and 22 innovational key to that. Thank you. 23 COUNCIL MEMBER ZINGALE: If I may. 24 CHAIR SOUTH: Yes. 25 COUNCIL MEMBER ZINGALE: Dominic, as a FOR THE RECORD REPORTING, TALLAHASSEE, FL 850.222.5491 26 1 potential continuous improvement for next year, I 2 mean, I see your panel of judges, I mean, they are 3 sitting there taking in something to recognize and 4 they may spend 20, 25 minutes, you know, evaluating 5 it in their ranking process. 6 When they finish that in a block, if maybe 7 they, you know, one star, two stars, three stars, 8 you know, potential for enterprise-wide 9 transformation since they are investing all of that 10 time, you know, you would think they would be the 11 best -- for next year, not this year -- you know, 12 flag those that have the highest potential for 13 enterprise-wide transformation because some are 14 just, you know, extraordinary performance from an 15 individual that produced a lot, it's not going to be 16 something that you're going to need to transport on. 17 But since they're devoting all of that time, maybe a 18 criteria of what an enterprise might be. And it 19 doesn't have to be real fancy, just some flagging 20 system. 21 MR. CALABRO: Well, we do have two levels. 22 One, we try to get the agencies to identify on their 23 part, do they think that is not being applied but 24 could be applied. But we find that's important 25 because they're responsible, you know, statutorily. FOR THE RECORD REPORTING, TALLAHASSEE, FL 850.222.5491 27 1 But we also, both the staff and the judges and the 2 senior fellows, we actually have a very triplicate 3 system of evaluation. It's not designed to be 4 efficient, it's designed to be quality control. But 5 there is an effort to do that. We can certainly do 6 that even better. 7 CHAIR SOUTH: I think there's a great deal of 8 opportunity here. We thank you for the conversation 9 and dialogue. 10 And, Dominic, thank you very much. 11 MR. CALABRO: Thank you. 12 CHAIR SOUTH: All right. Moving on to our next 13 item. We do have some administrative issues. And 14 Barb, if you want to come up. They are located in 15 Tab 3. 16 MS. CARTER: Good morning. This is a report on 17 the website. And as I give you my report, you are 18 going to be pleased with Section 4 of that report 19 because it addresses the IT content issue. And I 20 think you'll be relatively surprised how inexpensive 21 it's going to be to upgrade it. 22 And we can easily incorporate Dominic's data by 23 simply putting in one of four type of documents and 24 doing a word search on it. So that's going to be a 25 very easy adaptation, should DMS choose to update FOR THE RECORD REPORTING, TALLAHASSEE, FL 850.222.5491 28 1 the website. 2 The report is on Tab 3 of your notebook. The 3 first one is total number of hits to website. Since 4 our last meeting, we've had 2,226 hits. The most 5 popular page by far has been you. Everybody wants 6 to see you and know who you are. 7 COUNCIL MEMBER EVANS: We'll fall off fast. 8 COUNCIL MEMBER AGRAWAL: It just shows how 9 bored the state is. 10 MS. CARTER: I will tell you that I think that 11 number is abnormally large. I did send out an 12 e-mail to agencies, universities and special 13 interest groups such as OPPAGA, AG, TRW, House, 14 Senate, asking for their feedback and review of our 15 website. So I think it's in your report in the next 16 Council meeting, it will come down as a result of 17 that. 18 In the second section of that report is the 19 number of suggestions that we received on our 20 website. We received two. One is from a gentleman 21 who would like us to look at IT type of contracts 22 that are being worked on separately but are 23 interrelated and asked us just to focus on that, 24 which is again a theme of the kind of things we are 25 looking at. FOR THE RECORD REPORTING, TALLAHASSEE, FL 850.222.5491 29 1 The second suggestion was a compliment to 2 Dr. Zingale and Department of Revenue. This 3 gentleman applied for different jobs in different 4 divisions and just complimented DOR on their 5 professionalism in the responses back that he got. 6 So good job DOR. 7 The third section is the comments that we 8 received. We got some excellent, excellent comments 9 from the different people, Florida State University, 10 OPPAGA, different agency heads. What we're going to 11 do over the next few weeks is review those comments 12 and intergrade them as much as we can into our 13 website. Again, our website is going to grow and 14 evolve. We're looking at webcasting, podding, key 15 components of the past great presentations, white 16 papers and so on. 17 The section that's probably going to be of most 18 interest to you is Section 4, and that's the website 19 IT contract. I worked with DMS applications 20 development area, and they worked with the website 21 vendor being creative and working on that. 22 And in order to upgrade the current website to 23 allow key word search and attachment of documents, 24 it's going to cost in the rage of $6,200 to $7,500. 25 And that range is depending on the amount of FOR THE RECORD REPORTING, TALLAHASSEE, FL 850.222.5491 30 1 configuration that we have to do once we go in. 2 What that quote is for is for a new search 3 engine, upgrades to our current website operating 4 system and upgrade to EB (phonetic) Publishing, 5 which is a tool that we use to modify our website. 6 The benefits of this is huge. We use a lot of 7 attachments on our website right now, the state 8 contract area in particular. We have so much 9 pricing and contract data that we can't put it on 10 the website, cut and paste it on a page, we do it as 11 an Excel or Word or a PDF. 12 The same thing with Dominic's product. If he 13 gives us that in one of those four, PowerPoint, 14 Word, Excel or PDF, we can do a key word search that 15 will bring up all of the hits in those documents and 16 leave the customer to that document. 17 So should DMS choose to make that upgrade, the 18 action required for that will be Secretary of Staff, 19 in your role as Secretary, not as Chairman of the 20 Council, to review and approve that, allocate 21 funding for it, and then EITS would have final 22 approval if we are doing configuration changes, and 23 your application scheme would do that. 24 Any questions or comments? 25 (No response.) FOR THE RECORD REPORTING, TALLAHASSEE, FL 850.222.5491 31 1 MS. CARTER: Thank you very much. 2 COUNCIL MEMBER AGRAWAL: Great feedback on the 3 website. 4 MS. CARTER: Thank you. 5 CHAIR SOUTH: All right. We'll get started 6 right away. I have a hunch that Secretary South 7 will find that to be acceptable. 8 All right. Our next item will be with Rich. 9 We do have -- this is going to be an interesting 10 conversation, Rich, about the definition between 11 contracting, outsourcing and offshoring. We need to 12 be very clear about our language and the words that 13 we use to describe our projects as we look at what 14 our responsibilities and opportunities are and we 15 need to be quite clear about what those mean. 16 Rich. 17 MR. RAMOS: Madam Chair, thank you. As you've 18 stated, the definitions of outsourcing particularly 19 and contractual services, which are in our 20 Statute 287, deal specifically with how we determine 21 whether a contract or an item is outsourced or 22 whether it's considered outsourcing. Later on we're 23 actually going to talk about currently where we are 24 with respect to an inventory of outsourced services. 25 But I will share with you as we went and we FOR THE RECORD REPORTING, TALLAHASSEE, FL 850.222.5491 32 1 spoke to every agency and we looked to arrive at 2 that inventory, they were clearly -- the agencies 3 themselves are not certain based upon the definition 4 whether or not a contract is outsourced or it's just 5 a contract for service. 6 And what I've provided, the outsourcing 7 definition of contractual service definition which 8 are in statute are rather broad. And so, therefore, 9 it is not clear for the individuals who are 10 providing that information to us. 11 In some instances, there are those services 12 which they do believe are contractual and vice 13 versa. And they use it intermittently. So, 14 therefore, the information we provide at this point 15 is to the verification and we'll continue to work 16 towards verifying that information. 17 But what we are seeking and what I think is 18 important from our perspective and what we add in 19 and value is the ability of us to go to the 20 legislature and actually work to develop clearer 21 language on what specifically outsourcing is, what 22 is a contractual service. Because I think if we do 23 that, I think it may -- at that point, we can then 24 get a more narrow perspective, and so there will be 25 a greater understanding of what an outsourcing is FOR THE RECORD REPORTING, TALLAHASSEE, FL 850.222.5491 33 1 versus what a contractual service is. 2 Two other words that have come up that we have 3 been talking to people about are best practices and 4 offshoring. There are those who do not understand 5 them. And what we did I will share with you. 6 The first two are statutory language. They 7 already exist. Best practices and offshoring were 8 just definitions. We looked for what the best 9 definition was online to see on those two points 10 simply for discussion. 11 And I think that, again, this would be a good 12 model to look at. But I would ask the Council in 13 your roles to give us the opportunity to craft 14 language with the legislature and the legislative 15 process to make it clearer, cleaner and easier for 16 everyone to understand because I think then we'll 17 get a clearer picture of what we specifically 18 outsourced in the state and what we are now 19 currently doing as a contractual service. 20 CHAIR SOUTH: Okay. 21 COUNCIL MEMBER AGRAWAL: Rich, help me 22 understand completely outsourcing, contractural 23 service and the potential overlapping of the 24 definitions that needs to be clarified. Best 25 practices is a term we use extensively. FOR THE RECORD REPORTING, TALLAHASSEE, FL 850.222.5491 34 1 What's the relevance of offshoring from a 2 definitional perspective as it relates to any of the 3 state agencies? 4 MR. RAMOS: Well, currently offshoring has a 5 concern connotation. Certainly there are times that 6 a particular item has been -- again, with the 7 definition of offshoring, it is a company 8 subcontracting in essence to another company that is 9 not within the United States and therefore it's in a 10 foreign country. 11 Currently when you have items such as Social 12 Security numbers, ID information, those items are 13 all precluded from being offshored. However, if 14 you're doing something that is not in that vein, 15 one, the question becomes is offshoring allowable, I 16 mean, a clear definition of what offshoring is. 17 If you're sending it to another company that's 18 in the United States that may have companies offsite 19 but are sending it only to the United States, would 20 it be a clearer picture that way. 21 CHAIR SOUTH: Let me give you an example of why 22 it's important. We have security protocols that we 23 apply to our contractors and their subcontractors. 24 Those security protocols may not be the common 25 business practices of companies that are in other FOR THE RECORD REPORTING, TALLAHASSEE, FL 850.222.5491 35 1 countries and therefore as we're looking at contract 2 management in managing outsourced projects, we need 3 to be assured that regardless of where the work is 4 actually being performed, that we have the same 5 standards in place. 6 COUNCIL MEMBER AGRAWAL: And the reason I was 7 kind of asking the question is this issue has become 8 quite extensive from the federal level. And the way 9 it's been handled is through subcontracting language 10 within specific requirements, so that it's not a -- 11 there's no federal statute -- excuse me, there's no 12 law or any amendment to the Federal Acquisition 13 Regulations that I'm aware of specifically mandating 14 or requiring offshoring. I would like somebody to 15 check that what I'm saying is accurate. I'm pretty 16 sure on that. I just came from a meeting. 17 But what it is is it's a requirement that's 18 language specific to the requirement that's being 19 sought. Say the Department Financial Services, for 20 instance, has got some specific language that 21 certain things cannot be subcontracted out to non -- 22 you know, to certain qualified companies, so they do 23 depending specifically on the nature of the 24 requirement and the work -- securities is absolutely 25 one of the biggest issues. But I'm not sure that we FOR THE RECORD REPORTING, TALLAHASSEE, FL 850.222.5491 36 1 want a standard offshoring definition that's going 2 to limit what the requirement is depending on the 3 work that's being done. 4 For example, the requirements for HIPAA would 5 be greatly different than the requirements for 6 security work than the requirements for personal 7 information. And I think that needs to be -- the 8 flexibility needs to be the technical person writing 9 the requirements for that particular information 10 more so than a general definition that's applied to 11 all (inaudible.) 12 MR. RAMOS: I would not disagree with you. I 13 would only say -- and this is with past experience 14 within state government -- quite often staff looks 15 to the statute for the guidance because that is 16 where the clarity comes in for them as opposed to 17 going off and attempting something that just because 18 it does not say so in the statute doesn't mean it's 19 okay. And so, therefore, it gives a little bit of a 20 comfort level to those employees who then ask to 21 implement things and develop them. 22 But I'm not disagreeing with your point. I 23 totally understand. 24 COUNCIL MEMBER EVANS: If I could. 25 CHAIR SOUTH: Yes. FOR THE RECORD REPORTING, TALLAHASSEE, FL 850.222.5491 37 1 COUNCIL MEMBER EVANS: Rich, is our intent here 2 to impose new language that will then be proposed to 3 staff to change the statute? 4 MR. RAMOS: Yes, sir. 5 COUNCIL MEMBER EVANS: And what's the process 6 in which we're going to work towards that? 7 MR. RAMOS: We will work with the legislative 8 team with DMS and also look to have conversations 9 with the legislature, the Councils, the Chairs that 10 we work with that the Council will come to to share 11 with them where our questions are and certainly 12 would hope that it would be a collaborative process. 13 COUNCIL MEMBER EVANS: So will you be looking 14 for input from us on proposed substitute language? 15 MR. RAMOS: Yes, sir, as we did with the -- 16 like our mission statement and everything, what I 17 would hope to do is give you an opportunity to weigh 18 in both from the private sector perspective as well 19 as your government perspective and to share that 20 information with us as we put it forth so that it's 21 workable both from the government as well as what we 22 try to do, which is going outside the box. 23 CHAIR SOUTH: Jim. 24 COUNCIL MEMBER ZINGALE: This is probably 25 counter-productive, but you get excited when you FOR THE RECORD REPORTING, TALLAHASSEE, FL 850.222.5491 38 1 start doing this stuff. At one level, there is the 2 state standards that accounts the whole definition 3 of what contracts are and how you have a 4 classification system of contracts at one level, 5 that today the definitions are all over the place, 6 you go to one agency and they use these definitions 7 and you go to another agency, they use these 8 definitions, you put them in an accounting system, 9 so you can't use the accounting system and come back 10 and say -- you would think you would come down and 11 say look at the accounting system and tell us where 12 all of the things are going on, and you can't use 13 that date. 14 I believe in the long, long run that's what is 15 needed in a standard set of definitions to derive 16 that procurement side of the world. And you've got 17 all of this nice private sector and the person in 18 charge of all of that here. That's probably way 19 beyond our role in this Council. 20 On the other hand, are we narrowly saying we 21 need to define just a few things so we can define 22 our work here. That's more limited to small, and 23 here we're just trying to provide a communication 24 that says what's within our purview or not. 25 You know, I would love to see both of those FOR THE RECORD REPORTING, TALLAHASSEE, FL 850.222.5491 39 1 work in tandem, but I'm not so sure the first piece 2 is our job. I would love to see a glossary of terms 3 that go beyond just the few that the statute is 4 pointing us to that frames it. 5 The vocabulary that's here, in all honesty, 6 captures legislative staff's thoughts. There's no 7 business language in here that's very common to the 8 language you all see in the private sector. 9 I would hope wherever we go, we would end up 10 with a common vocabulary that extends beyond this 11 committee, beyond the state, a vocabulary that the 12 real world is using. So I wish we would look to the 13 long term, and yet we got a short time frame works 14 in terms of how you want to define it. 15 So I would come back to you and ask are you 16 looking for just a few things to help guide us? Are 17 you looking for maybe a little longer glossary of 18 terms that would help us communicate a little 19 better? Are we making recommendations in the long 20 run to how the procurement world ought to work? 21 What would you recommend to us? 22 MR. RAMOS: I would suggest that our 23 conversations had led me more to the enterprise-wide 24 vision of things. So therefore, although we might 25 be eating the dinosaur, we're going to eat it one FOR THE RECORD REPORTING, TALLAHASSEE, FL 850.222.5491 40 1 bite at a time, so we'll take it step by step. 2 And I think by providing these, we provide a 3 framework because it is agency-wide. These are 4 definitions that I think will help each of the 5 agencies. And I think as we continue to go down, I 6 think part of our role is the ability to then 7 continue to share that information, again for best 8 practices. And as we use it here, but certainly 9 best practices as they can go forward and hopefully 10 continue to change that mind set. And it probably 11 would not be within our time frame to continue. But 12 hopefully it would continued to develop over time. 13 CHAIR SOUTH: Holly. 14 COUNCIL MEMBER BENSON: No, I don't have 15 anything. 16 CHAIR SOUTH: Jim, do you have an action that 17 you would like us to consider? 18 COUNCIL MEMBER ZINGALE: I guess the first 19 motion would be that the staff would continue to 20 help work with us for input and the legislative 21 staff for input and provide a few definitions that 22 would allow us to do the work of this committee and 23 be able to communicate with other state agencies. 24 That would be the A motion. 25 The B motion would be very minimal but a FOR THE RECORD REPORTING, TALLAHASSEE, FL 850.222.5491 41 1 beginning of just a glossary of terms, you know, a 2 two-page glossary of terms that puts industry 3 standard type things around these procurements and 4 whatever the common definition is for it, nothing 5 more than information for us just so that when we 6 sit down and have that in front of us, it would have 7 the same vocabulary. We wouldn't be trying to sell 8 that to the legislature or other agencies, it would 9 just be a working document for us. 10 The first motion is a limited set of 11 definitions that would help guide us with input. 12 CHAIR SOUTH: There's a motion on the table. 13 COUNCIL MEMBER AGRAWAL: Second. 14 COUNCIL MEMBER ZINGALE: The second one would 15 be -- 16 CHAIR SOUTH: Let's go ahead and vote for this 17 one. All in favor. 18 (Aye response.) 19 CHAIR SOUTH: Opposed. 20 (No response.) 21 CHAIR SOUTH: That one passed. 22 COUNCIL MEMBER ZINGALE: The second one would 23 be -- 24 MR. RAMOS: We already have a glossary of terms 25 on our website that we're developing. That's one of FOR THE RECORD REPORTING, TALLAHASSEE, FL 850.222.5491 42 1 the things which I believe you had asked for 2 earlier, so we've already begun that process. 3 COUNCIL MEMBER ZINGALE: No second motion. 4 CHAIR SOUTH: Thank you, Rich. 5 MR. RAMOS: You're welcome. 6 CHAIR SOUTH: The next item on our agenda will 7 be old business. And, Rich, if you could stay up 8 here, please, and give us an update on the Council's 9 deliverables, annual report update, which is under 10 Tab 4 of your exhibits. 11 MR. RAMOS: We are in the process of developing 12 our annual report, as we discussed at the last 13 meeting. It will be prepared for you and we'll 14 have -- although our next Council meeting is not 15 scheduled until the end of July, you will have the 16 opportunity to review it and we'll have discussions 17 individually as we've been trying to do all along 18 with it by the July 1 deadline. 19 As well, what we've done and what I've tried to 20 provide you is a snapshot in here, as we were just 21 discussing, and that is the outsourcing issue, an 22 inventory that exists. We can walk through and you 23 can see the number of outsourced projects, the 24 different agencies and the value of these projects. 25 Again, the question that comes back and many of FOR THE RECORD REPORTING, TALLAHASSEE, FL 850.222.5491 43 1 them asked us would you classify X project as an 2 outsourcing or would you classify it as a contracted 3 service. So that's where getting back to the terms. 4 It all comes back together. 5 And so this is the information that we've 6 received at this point, the number of outsourced 7 projects, and the number of them that exceed the 8 $10 million threshold and how much we are doing in 9 the outsourcing field. 10 That is a major component of what we will be 11 providing. I think it's valuable. I think it's 12 also important that we have an understanding of what 13 that is. And I'm fairly confident that you'll be 14 pleased with the remainder of the document. 15 I certainly would ask as we get into the 16 question of format, if there is any other 17 particulars that you as Council members would care 18 to see. Again, we would look for that feedback so 19 that we could certainly craft a document that the 20 Council would submit that you would be proud of and 21 pleased with that would offer any particular 22 information. 23 And, of course, one of the other components 24 that we've talked about is the ability of offering 25 recommendations, ideas for good ideas. And that FOR THE RECORD REPORTING, TALLAHASSEE, FL 850.222.5491 44 1 ties directly to what Dominic talked about this 2 morning, which is the ability of taking these ideas 3 and seeing if we can use them in an enterprise-wide 4 solution. 5 COUNCIL MEMBER EVANS: Rich, if I could, one 6 question. Going back to the purpose and the intent 7 of the Council, I'm beginning to understand the 8 reason for clarification of the terminology real 9 fast, especially when I look down here and I see 111 10 outsourced projects that are being proposed for over 11 $10 million or more. 12 MR. RAMOS: These are contracts that exist, 13 yes, sir. 14 COUNCIL MEMBER EVANS: They are suggested? 15 MR. RAMOS: They are already in. 16 COUNCIL MEMBER EVANS: They are already in 17 there? 18 MR. RAMOS: They are already in. 19 COUNCIL MEMBER EVANS: So if we were to 20 leapfrog forward or go back in time, that would 21 say -- that would suggest then that this Council 22 would have the responsibility of reviewing 110 23 projects? 24 MR. RAMOS: That is correct. 25 COUNCIL MEMBER EVANS: As it's currently FOR THE RECORD REPORTING, TALLAHASSEE, FL 850.222.5491 45 1 defined? 2 MR. RAMOS: That is correct. 3 CHAIR SOUTH: All right. James. 4 COUNCIL MEMBER ZINGALE: It might help since as 5 you've gone through these and you've described them 6 that you believe these are outsourced projects when 7 they were submitted or did you just put them in 8 here? 9 MR. RAMOS: When we contacted the agencies, we 10 specifically asked them to give us their outsourced 11 contracts. That's when they came back and we gave 12 them the broad definition that exists in the statute 13 to provide it predicated on that. So these are 14 based upon their interpretations, the agencies' 15 interpretations of outsourcing the contracted 16 services. 17 COUNCIL MEMBER ZINGALE: To the extent that as 18 you're going through the definition phase and 19 rewriting the definition with input, to the extent 20 you could find really neat examples here, what is 21 one of those that you can start building five or six 22 examples clearly what an outsourced project is to 23 differentiate from a contractual service and then 24 maybe some really good examples of contractual 25 services so that we can start seeing the difference FOR THE RECORD REPORTING, TALLAHASSEE, FL 850.222.5491 46 1 between the two. 2 MR. RAMOS: Absolutely. 3 COUNCIL MEMBER SINK: This is a very good 4 chart, which makes it clear to me that basically 5 we're talking about five departments so that we can 6 really narrow our focus to the five big ones, if you 7 will. 8 Of course, then there's the big elephant, DJJ 9 that's just popping out at me. So perhaps it will 10 be helpful to us as we go forward, let's focus in on 11 DJJ and a couple of these other ones and not be too 12 concerned about some of the other agencies whose 13 activities are really minimal in this area. Maybe 14 you all talked about this the last time. But it 15 certainly narrows our focus down, doesn't it? 16 MR. RAMOS: I will share with you, ma'am, we 17 were invited by Secretary McNeil to present to DJJ, 18 and they are actually looking forward to working 19 with us because many of their outsourcing projects 20 are statutorily required. 21 And to some degree, they want the opportunity 22 to maybe present what might be a cost savings 23 measure to remain in-house as opposed to outsourced, 24 and that was one of the areas that we suggested that 25 we would be happy to work with them in building that FOR THE RECORD REPORTING, TALLAHASSEE, FL 850.222.5491 47 1 as an opportunity. 2 CHAIR SOUTH: Other comments? 3 (No response.) 4 CHAIR SOUTH: Rich, that's really good data, 5 and we look forward to continuing to working with 6 that information to focus our scope. 7 The next item will be the PeopleFirst review. 8 Turn to our Tab 6 in your agenda. And Rich is going 9 to go over that. 10 MR. RAMOS: Yes. If you were to go through on 11 that, it clearly walks through what the review of 12 PeopleFirst would look like. And frankly we could 13 take PeopleFirst, cross that off and put Project 14 Acquire or we could put My Florida MarketPlace. 15 These are the major components of what we 16 believe a good background is on going forward, 17 lessons learned, which is obviously what we all 18 talked about, the ability to -- as we put an X in 19 the sand and move forward, how do we not make the 20 same efforts in the future on identifying that. 21 And these are -- again, I'll walk through the 22 overview -- time line of key events, project facts, 23 projected versus actual achievement, national 24 trends, accomplishments, a summary of issues, 25 proposed enhancements, Department of Management FOR THE RECORD REPORTING, TALLAHASSEE, FL 850.222.5491 48 1 Services' alternatives and project-specific lessons 2 learned. 3 And I think that as we go to the next page, 4 which would be the discussion of our final project, 5 the reality is that the lessons learned once again 6 is overarching for all projects. Again, we could 7 remove the names and call them XXX because the 8 reality is that good project development, it doesn't 9 matter what it is you're procuring or what you're 10 contracting, good decision making on the front side 11 will make the decision and it will make it better 12 and make the product better in the long term. 13 And that's what I think we are hoping to 14 provide in that complete project, which will have 15 all of the cases in it, and as you can see on the 16 next page on the final report dealing specifically 17 with what would be incorporated in that report with 18 the final overall lessons learned. 19 Again, if there's anything specific that you 20 would like to see that you don't see listed here, I 21 would be happy to work with the team. 22 Yes. 23 COUNCIL MEMBER YANDELL: In the review of the 24 projects that we looked at, particularly My Florida 25 MarketPlace, one of the things that was obvious in FOR THE RECORD REPORTING, TALLAHASSEE, FL 850.222.5491 49 1 the deployment phase of the My Florida MarketPlace 2 had to do with the dependency on some aspects of 3 that to aspire being available, and the fact that it 4 wasn't was affecting deployment. 5 And the only thing that I was going to talk 6 about or wanted to talk about when we did this is to 7 look at these large projects and make sure that also 8 as a part of the review process and as we look them, 9 looking at the interdependencies that they have that 10 are time critical on other projects that are similar 11 in process sometimes is also something that's not 12 done, there's an assumption that if so and so will 13 get their work done therefore I will be able to do 14 it. 15 And it's that time line dependency that also 16 keeps My Florida MarketPlace potentially from being 17 as deployed, and I would hope that report deals with 18 that in some depth. 19 COUNCIL MEMBER SINK: Were we going to make 20 some summary recommendations or make a motion? 21 CHAIR SOUTH: About the project specifically? 22 COUNCIL MEMBER SINK: Well, about putting all 23 of the pieces of the puzzle together and kind of 24 a -- I guess the thing -- I see you got lessons 25 learned. But that leads me into, okay, so we FOR THE RECORD REPORTING, TALLAHASSEE, FL 850.222.5491 50 1 learned these lessons, how should we conduct 2 ourselves going -- what would be our recommendation? 3 CHAIR SOUTH: How to codify it and make it 4 become part of the fabric of the best practices in 5 the state? 6 COUNCIL MEMBER SINK: Yes. 7 CHAIR SOUTH: Good question. 8 COUNCIL MEMBER YANDELL: The last time we 9 met -- and this is a question that we had last 10 time -- which is are we here specifically to review 11 or do we recommend and attempt to facilitate 12 remedial -- and I think that's more of a question 13 that you're asking. I mean, we've got a lot of 14 horsepower here, and our purview is kind of to look 15 at it and say, well, how can it get better going 16 forward. 17 But I think there are probably things that we 18 can come up with that potentially might help us 19 looking at it as a forest and trees perspective. It 20 might help some of these things get back on track 21 faster. And is there a methodology or some 22 structure that we can do to do that, Madam 23 Secretary. 24 CHAIR SOUTH: That is an understanding 25 question. Let me think about it practically as well FOR THE RECORD REPORTING, TALLAHASSEE, FL 850.222.5491 51 1 as theoretically. 2 The Council on Efficient Government's primary 3 objective is to be a clearinghouse of best practices 4 for problematic areas in a contract at which point 5 parts that are new and going forward have these 6 standards applied to them and we're trying to 7 prevent future snafus. 8 The three projects the Governor asked this 9 Council to review are projects that are well down 10 the line with a great deal of complexity and they 11 have a life of their own outside the Council on 12 Efficient Government. 13 It's my understanding that the CEG's review of 14 that was to extract what went wrong. And frankly 15 today as we look at what we've heard from the Tax 16 Watch as also the CEC review, we're looking at two 17 ways to make the state better if we're going to take 18 care of business, what went wrong and what have we 19 learned from it so we can fall forward in future 20 activities, and second what's being done right that 21 we need to replicate to become part of the fabric 22 for that. 23 I think that Tim's question about -- I hear 24 what you're saying -- you want to say I want to fix 25 Project Aspire, I want to fix PeopleFirst, I want to FOR THE RECORD REPORTING, TALLAHASSEE, FL 850.222.5491 52 1 fix My Florida MarketPlace and what is the role of 2 CEG in that. 3 I have my own thoughts on it because I have two 4 of those projects. And frankly, they are both 5 hurling down the tracks between activities happening 6 independent of CEG as we speak, which I'm quite sure 7 (inaudible) hurling project down the track on that 8 one. 9 So the question is what do we see that -- I 10 don't know how CEG can help those projects today 11 because they are pretty well done. I think our 12 best -- I think our role of CEG is to prevent them 13 from happening again. 14 COUNCIL MEMBER SINK: I think what I'm asking 15 for is -- and this is helpful for me -- it seems to 16 me for us to have -- we'll have a lot of value, but 17 we ought to establish sort of guiding principles. 18 CHAIR SOUTH: For CEG? 19 COUNCIL MEMBER SINK: No. The guiding 20 principles for contracting. We're going to have 21 many, many learnings coming down out of these three 22 projects. We are going to evaluate these three 23 specific ones, figure out what went wrong, what 24 could have been done better. 25 But to me it's a natural progression into a FOR THE RECORD REPORTING, TALLAHASSEE, FL 850.222.5491 53 1 summary with all of this great experience we've got 2 around in our Council to be able to say going 3 forward what should the guiding principles for doing 4 this kind of big contracting be. 5 CHAIR SOUTH: And that's the role of CEG is 6 that when the big projects come down, those guiding 7 principles will be applied. And the agency has been 8 given the benefit of this Council's work in making 9 sure we don't replicate these projects, there's 10 common denominators in the review of each new 11 project and they never need to be done again. 12 COUNCIL MEMBER YANDELL: And I understand that. 13 My only observation -- and I agree with that and I 14 think we kind of nailed that the last time -- it's 15 suggested that these projects all have a long shelf 16 life. And in one case, we're going to complete one 17 of these projects and end up in particular with -- 18 unless something is changed in regard to the way 19 it's structured today -- you're going to end up with 20 no product, an expiring license for the project that 21 you've just spent all of this money to create, and 22 it's an ongoing process. 23 So if we can sit here and walk through this and 24 maybe come up with some things that build structure 25 to help fix that as it goes in the process, that's FOR THE RECORD REPORTING, TALLAHASSEE, FL 850.222.5491 54 1 helpful. That's all I'm alluding to. 2 CHAIR SOUTH: I can assure you that as I work 3 projects that are on my plate, that I'm looking for 4 more and asking for and using best thinking possible 5 as we work on this. 6 Holly. 7 COUNCIL MEMBER BENSON: Thank you, Madam 8 Secretary. I would just point out that our 9 statutory charge is to look at the outsourcings that 10 are coming forward. And I think the concern about 11 making recommendations about the contracts that are 12 within the Secretary's purview and (inaudible) 13 purview is that there's a statutory prohibition that 14 (inaudible) on this Council to review contracts that 15 are coming up, so I don't know that we have a role 16 in reviewing contracts that exist. I mean, I don't 17 know if they would also have the same statutory 18 prohibition. 19 So while we wait for outsourcing to review, 20 we're kind of treading water and trying to figure 21 out what we're going to be able to do, right, 22 because our statutory charge is just to look at 23 things coming up rather than coming back. So we're 24 kind of expanding our scope of work while we bide 25 our time, right, Madam Secretary? FOR THE RECORD REPORTING, TALLAHASSEE, FL 850.222.5491 55 1 CHAIR SOUTH: Right. 2 Other thoughts? Do you have a thought? 3 COUNCIL MEMBER EVANS: It's a dangerous 4 observation. To be honest with you, the reason 5 we're looking back right now is to understand 6 lessons learned as we go forward. At what stage 7 will we be -- do you envision us engaging in 8 reviewing some of these projects as they're coming 9 forward? 10 MR. RAMOS: When the contract has been bidded 11 out and they decided that they are going to develop 12 a business case, they will come to the Council on 13 Efficient Government for approval to go to the next 14 process. So therefore, they will present to us and 15 we will present to you their contract and the desire 16 for these contracted services. 17 CHAIR SOUTH: Is there anything in the hopper 18 right now? 19 MR. RAMOS: Currently, no. 20 CHAIR SOUTH: How are we communicating with the 21 agencies to let them know? Is there a specific 22 outreach plan to the agencies? 23 MR. RAMOS: I've already met three of the 24 chiefs of staff. I met with all of them, George 25 LeMieux, and had also shared that information, and FOR THE RECORD REPORTING, TALLAHASSEE, FL 850.222.5491 56 1 as I sent out contacting agency heads letting them 2 know of our availability and our desire to work with 3 them. 4 CHAIR SOUTH: Other questions about the 5 formatting? 6 (No response.) 7 CHAIR SOUTH: I want to make sure -- and those 8 comments are well taken -- on the final report, the 9 lessons learned will need to be very -- they have a 10 lot of punch about those things that are common 11 denominators in the processing that are applicable 12 across the enterprise for the Cabinet Agency or 13 Executive Agency, that that be the value of this 14 exercise. And there could be another element of 15 this report, which would be your intentions on 16 communicating these lessons learned. 17 MR. RAMOS: If I may make a recommendation at 18 this point. Maybe aside from incorporating these 19 lessons learned in this particular project, may we 20 do a separate lessons learned that we then send out 21 to the agency discussing again best business 22 practices that would then allow us an opportunity? 23 We've been working on a marketing plan or 24 developing an idea plan where we're reaching out to 25 the agencies. Would we will able to incorporate FOR THE RECORD REPORTING, TALLAHASSEE, FL 850.222.5491 57 1 that as a separate document that goes specifically 2 to those issues so that we are talking about guiding 3 principles within business as are discussed? 4 CHAIR SOUTH: One of the most valuable things 5 that I get in my personal life is when I get trade 6 publications around my hobbies, which would be scuba 7 diving, skydiving and aviation. And the 8 publications review accidents that happen to 9 determine what were the common denominators of that. 10 I think that's what we're looking at, is this a 11 postmortem of an accident that could have been 12 prevented and let's review that. There's a lot of 13 lessons to be learned in this. 14 MR. RAMOS: I agree. 15 COUNCIL MEMBER ZINGALE: Under your Tab 9 is 16 the framework that we would kind of like laid out, 17 you know, as the building blocks as we go forward 18 with what a process might look like. We've agreed 19 before that if you find the lessons learned, I think 20 Tab 9 is trying to link them up against those 21 processes. 22 If you look at that first process on your 23 chart, conceptionalization, I mean, I had my own 24 opinions about the projects, but there's literature 25 out there in terms of envisioning stages of the FOR THE RECORD REPORTING, TALLAHASSEE, FL 850.222.5491 58 1 project, if the workflow systems aren't adequately 2 thought about, if the pre-engineering concepts 3 aren't built in first, if the statutory changes 4 aren't built in first, then all you're going to get 5 forward is you may have made the same process you 6 already have in the technology laid on top. 7 So I would kind of like to see every time you 8 meet or as these things come forward, you know, a 9 good literature search on what are the most common 10 problems in that first block area of 11 conceptionalization in your business case. 12 Well, there's a lot of literature on why 13 business cases fail, you know, that as we go through 14 we could at least get some reading material that 15 would guide us not only in terms of that specific 16 project but what the literature out there says in 17 terms of where things fail. I mean, it's not only 18 in your hobby literature, but it's in every 19 professional journal that's out there. 20 There's academic research to give us some 21 underpinnings in terms of if they fail, do they fail 22 because of common reasons we should have already 23 known, do they fail -- are we the first ones to find 24 it in the world. I doubt that we're going to find 25 many of those -- I doubt if every single ones of the FOR THE RECORD REPORTING, TALLAHASSEE, FL 850.222.5491 59 1 projects work successfully because many other 2 projects didn't work successfully for the same 3 reason. 4 So I don't know -- I wouldn't mind -- I don't 5 want to cause any burden on the staff -- but I 6 wouldn't mind seeing a literature search on some of 7 these topics as we go forward to help build that 8 body of knowledge. 9 CHAIR SOUTH: Thank you. 10 Akhil. 11 COUNCIL MEMBER AGRAWAL: Madam Secretary and 12 Madam Chairwoman, to try and understand this and try 13 and make this more practical and workable from my 14 very limited viewpoint of this, if the idea is to 15 make sure that we learn from projects of the past as 16 well as the body of literature that's out there 17 relative to it or from an academic viewpoint from 18 business cases that have been developed in whatever 19 setting, wouldn't it just make a lot of sense rather 20 than trying to communicate and proactively educate 21 everybody around those issues as folks go to apply 22 for and to bring forward here is the process that we 23 want to do along with the instruction of how to fill 24 out the forms, we say we would like you to consider 25 the following things that are lessons learned and FOR THE RECORD REPORTING, TALLAHASSEE, FL 850.222.5491 60 1 use that as guidelines, keep it simple, keep it 2 succinct because we run the risk of maybe providing 3 too much information around it that allows somebody 4 from an executive level that is reviewing a project 5 requirement going out the door to say, okay, does 6 the requirement that we're putting forth or 7 submitting to Council or to DMS, whichever side it 8 goes to, have we thought about these five, six, ten 9 criteria that are lessons learned, I mean something 10 brief and succinct that's actually usable because we 11 run the risk -- and, Dr. Zingale, I agree with your 12 point, there are business groups that do nothing, 13 there are organizations that are strategic planning 14 organizations that do nothing but (inaudible.) 15 And I think we run the risk of having so much 16 information out there that an executive decision 17 maker can't possibly digest that information and 18 translate that into something actionable to what it 19 is they're trying to accomplish. And I'm a little 20 bit more -- I'm a private sector guy -- I'm a little 21 results driven in my thinking, so my personal 22 purpose to being here is to try to make sure what we 23 do going forward is an efficient use of taxpayer 24 dollars. 25 What's happened has happened, we should FOR THE RECORD REPORTING, TALLAHASSEE, FL 850.222.5491 61 1 absolutely learn from it. But quite frankly, it's 2 not that we can do anything about it at this point. 3 The people that have accountability for it can deal 4 with it. 5 And we've got good right to be able to do it 6 and we have every confidence that we will do the 7 best that we can with it on a go-forward basis. 8 Let's just take what we've learned and make it 9 succinct, simple, make the guiding principle 10 available as part of the instructions in a way that 11 if we want to have literature searches and detailed 12 information and project reports behind it for 13 somebody that has an interest, that's great, but if 14 not, we want the executive agent submitting them to 15 have at a minimum basis to consider the following 16 factors and criteria. 17 And if they have considered and they think 18 there's application to fix it, then move forward. I 19 mean, I'm just trying to figure out a way to make it 20 simple and succinct because I think it's actionable. 21 I think we run the risk of becoming too vigorous. 22 CHAIR SOUTH: All right. Good input. 23 Rich, thank you for that. 24 MR. RAMOS: Thank you. 25 CHAIR SOUTH: I wanted to draw our attention to FOR THE RECORD REPORTING, TALLAHASSEE, FL 850.222.5491 62 1 the clock, we have 40 minutes remaining on our time 2 scheduled and we have several other agenda items, so 3 we'll move quickly through those. Let's go to 4 Project Aspire Update. 5 MS. CARTER: The purpose of this presentation 6 is to just tell you what the office has done on 7 Project Aspire and to brief you and bring you up to 8 date. 9 To date the office has begun doing a project in 10 order to capture exactly what you're talking about, 11 the successes and failures that we're seeing on 12 these ERP type of projects. To date we've reviewed 13 the Gardner (phonetic) case report, we've reviewed 14 documents that are on their website. We've met with 15 the Department of Financial Services Project Human 16 Management to get their perspective and take on what 17 worked and what didn't work, what were their 18 strengths, what were their weaknesses. 19 We've determined that the audit general, OPPAGA 20 have not reviewed or reported anything on these 21 reports on this project. We are meeting with TRW to 22 get their perception on the project and their review 23 on what worked and what didn't work. 24 We're also meeting with the (inaudible), having 25 a conversation with them probably next week to get FOR THE RECORD REPORTING, TALLAHASSEE, FL 850.222.5491 63 1 the vendor take and perception on what worked and 2 what didn't work. And just in our short review, 3 there are a lot of similarities to PeopleFirst and 4 there are lack of a process (inaudible) among 5 agencies, difficulties or unwillingness to modify 6 our business processes. 7 Our agencies want to take the current business 8 process and then push it into the new technology and 9 not change it, and that's not working for us at all. 10 Having a project executive sponsor who has been 11 given the authority to obtain performance at all 12 agencies and then pushing that support and that 13 management structure of that agency and pushing it 14 all the way down. 15 I had a meeting last year with the director, it 16 was on My Florida MarketPlace, and we were up there 17 and he said -- at the end we were talking about the 18 upgrades -- and I use this as my rule -- and he said 19 if you can not support this program or cannot accept 20 the changes that we're going to do, come talk to me, 21 he was very sweet, and he said we'll see about 22 finding you another job. I thought, okay, tough 23 love. 24 But we had a liability. We're seeing a lot of 25 over-customization of the three programs that we're FOR THE RECORD REPORTING, TALLAHASSEE, FL 850.222.5491 64 1 reviewing, all three. We know that Aspire is 2 customized. We know that PeopleFirst has over 200 3 customizations. We know that My Florida MarketPlace 4 has over 400 customizations. We are not following 5 that standard in the industry. 6 We have -- it's like building a house. I think 7 CFO Sink used this on the Florida Channel. We're 8 building a house, we need accurate blueprints to 9 build that house. But what we're doing is we have 10 30 or 40 relatives coming in, changing our 11 blueprints without giving us more money, without 12 changing our schedule. We're not going to be happy 13 with the house we have and when we turn on the 14 lights the toilet's probably going to flush. 15 And I know that's very simple, but that's what 16 we're doing. We're seeing credibility issues in our 17 state agency programs. We have difficulty with the 18 media and the view from the general public's 19 expectations on these programs. 20 Also, the programs have funding challenges. 21 And the two programs that we're talking about right 22 now, Aspire and PeopleFirst are both in litigation, 23 have litigation issue. So we're seeing those common 24 similarities among these big projects. 25 And so what we will be bringing to you are FOR THE RECORD REPORTING, TALLAHASSEE, FL 850.222.5491 65 1 these findings and have everyone meet. And he said 2 to the PeopleFirst team, we should have a little 3 piece of paper that says do not undertake these 4 projects unless you are willing to do this, this, 5 this and this. And I thought that was very good. 6 And that was Mr. Steve Evans, by the way, who said 7 that. And I think that holds true with the way 8 we're doing this. 9 CHAIR SOUTH: All right. Very good. 10 Questions, comments? 11 (No response.) 12 MS. CARTER: Thank you. 13 CHAIR SOUTH: Thank you for your good work, 14 Barb, and to Council staff. 15 The next item up under old business, Rich is 16 going to report on his review of the 311 system and 17 take a look at that, so Rich. 18 MR. RAMOS: The 311 system, for those who are 19 not aware of it, 311 is a system being used in a 20 number of cities throughout the country, many large 21 cities to standardize an opportunity for an 22 individual to pick up the phone and call 311 and 23 obtain information about that city. 24 We're familiar to some degree with 211 here in 25 the Panhandle. It's been advertised. 311 works to FOR THE RECORD REPORTING, TALLAHASSEE, FL 850.222.5491 66 1 literally tie everybody together so that if -- and 2 we were issued -- it was actually outstanding -- and 3 one of the points, because we had an opportunity to 4 look at the 311 system and how it works to alleviate 5 some of the stresses to 911. 6 And they found a direct correlation between 7 those individuals who access 311 for non-emergency 8 issues and those people who were currently using 911 9 for non-emergency issues, which obviously affects 10 response time by law enforcement. 11 We sat there, we got an opportunity to see it. 12 And I have to tell you it's very impressive. The 13 question that exists -- and certainly there are 14 other locales doing it -- is whether or not we can 15 take a system such as 311 which is often used in 16 cities and make it a statewide system. That's a 17 question that still has to be answered. And, again, 18 this gets directly to the issue of when we're 19 talking about an enterprise-wide solution, how we 20 arrive at that. 21 There's some information provided in your 22 package that discusses the 311, and I'm certainly 23 happy to discuss it with you because I think it's 24 something that we're looking at as a potential. I 25 believe that the opportunity to answer the concerns FOR THE RECORD REPORTING, TALLAHASSEE, FL 850.222.5491 67 1 of the citizens and be responsive is what we are 2 trying to do. 3 Again, now comes the decision about making good 4 business decisions and whether or not what is in the 5 best interest of the state of Florida. So it's 6 early stages of it, but we'll certainly keep you 7 apprised of that. And I believe it's an issue which 8 will continue to have a life going forward. 9 COUNCIL MEMBER SINK: Can you clarify for us 10 what's the focus of -- I'm familiar with 211 -- 11 versus 311. Is 311 governmental specific? 12 MR. RAMOS: 211 is generally done in 13 conjunction with the United Way, and very often what 14 they do is they work to have the community there to 15 help maybe the disabled or the aged specifically. 16 If there's a storm, you can use 211 to get 17 information. 18 311 would actually take all information about 19 the state -- and I can give you an example as a 20 city -- we actually listened to several calls that 21 came in, people called and said, as an example, 22 there's a fire burning at the end of the street, 23 it's not really affecting -- it's a car, what's 24 happening. 25 And they were able to punch up on a touch FOR THE RECORD REPORTING, TALLAHASSEE, FL 850.222.5491 68 1 screen, they were actually able to say, okay, that's 2 such and such and such street, a fire truck is on 3 the way and there's actually an emergency that's 4 been called in by two other people, there's no 5 injuries, something as small as I happen to be going 6 to a baseball game tonight and I want to know is the 7 subway system closed at this point because I heard 8 it might be. And they were able to tell them, no, 9 there's only a 20-minute delay. It basically 10 provides every service with them. 11 Now, the question is whether or not it would 12 work on a statewide basis dealing specifically with 13 all of the different agencies that have different 14 information to provide, how can it be done, how can 15 we access that information, have enough operators 16 who can do it, because according to all of the 17 people operating it -- and this is across the 18 country -- people who call the number, New York City 19 showed an increase of almost 40 percent from its 20 inception to the second year. So it will be used, 21 but it will cost to implement and cost to operate. 22 CHAIR SOUTH: What is CEG's role in this 23 project? 24 MR. RAMOS: To watch as it's going forward that 25 a good, solid business case is developed, that FOR THE RECORD REPORTING, TALLAHASSEE, FL 850.222.5491 69 1 business decisions are looked at from that 2 perspective, are we looking at an enterprise-wide 3 solution, are we following the lessons learned from 4 these past projects and are they being fit into this 5 model. 6 CHAIR SOUTH: Go ahead. 7 COUNCIL MEMBER EVANS: Where would this be 8 coming from? Who would be bringing this forward, 9 Richard? 10 MR. RAMOS: This would come forth probably from 11 the administration. 12 CHAIR SOUTH: This is an example of every 13 project has a concept that seeds from somewhere. 14 And so at this moment, the concept is the 311 is a 15 seed that needs to be investigated. If it were 16 something that the Governor's Office was going to 17 sponsor through the legislature funding, it would be 18 an extraordinarily complex, very large 19 enterprise-wide project. 20 CEG's involvement at this stage would allow 21 CEG's understanding of what the project would be and 22 allow us to do our job better. That's the nature of 23 CEG's involvement right now. It's in the incubator 24 standpoint, and it's a project that may or may not 25 come to fruition. Thank you, Rich. It was great in FOR THE RECORD REPORTING, TALLAHASSEE, FL 850.222.5491 70 1 Chicago. 2 The next item on the agenda is a Survey 3 Research by providing some accumulation of 4 information on that. It's under Tab 8. 5 And, Richard, if you'll report on that, please. 6 MR. RAMOS: Yes. What we've talked about, one 7 of the issues, again, as we're going with lessons 8 learned, it's the very essence of what is being 9 learned throughout the process. 10 Not every lesson has elevated itself to the 11 agency head. Quite often there might be project 12 managers, there might be individuals within the 13 organization that can share information. 14 So what we propose to do is to send out a 15 questionnaire. I've been working with Rob Headler 16 (phonetic) of DMS because this is his expertise and 17 to try and develop a good questionnaire that we can 18 put through not only to the agencies but as listed, 19 I would like to send it to auditors, I would like to 20 send it to Governor's boards such OPB and TRW, the 21 legislature, lobbyists and special interest groups 22 and vendors and give a cross-section and try to 23 understand from each of their perspectives as there 24 have been projects that they have worked on, 25 projects they have tried to develop, where have they FOR THE RECORD REPORTING, TALLAHASSEE, FL 850.222.5491 71 1 found the items that have worked well, where have 2 they found the items that have not worked well, what 3 would their perspective be. 4 And to this date as I've looked into this and 5 I've checked and our staff has done an outstanding 6 job of trying to accumulate information about this, 7 we have not be able to find anywhere that this type 8 of information has ever been put together with 9 everybody's input. It always seems to come from one 10 perspective or another. 11 And so, therefore, a real cross-section to 12 really, really understand the process and as we've 13 talked about postmortem, in essence this would 14 actually be a part of the autopsy,